Panelists focus on the implications of the latest human rights protests in Iran for the nation’s home political regime, U.S.-Iran relations, and the broader Middle East geopolitical panorama.
The CFR Young Professionals Briefing Series supplies a chance for these early of their careers to interact with CFR. The briefings function remarks by specialists on essential world points and classes discovered of their careers. These occasions are supposed for people who’ve accomplished their undergraduate research and haven’t but reached the age of thirty to be eligible for CFR time period membership.
BUECHE: Good night. Welcome to the Council on Foreign Relations. My identify is Carrie Bueche and I’m the director of Washington conferences right here at CFR.
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And I’d like to show issues over to our moderator, Henry Rome, who’s a senior fellow on the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
ROME: Thanks very a lot, Carrie. And good night, everybody. Welcome to as we speak’s Council on Foreign Relations Young Professionals Briefing, “After the Protests: Human Rights in Iran.” I’m Henry Rome, a senior fellow on the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and I’ll be presiding over as we speak’s dialogue.
On stage with me and just about, we have now three incredible audio system. The first, Nazanin Boniadi— who, when you comply with Iran, you understand who she is. If you don’t comply with Iran, there’s an excellent likelihood you additionally know who she is, given her appearing profession—ambassador for Amnesty International UK, and in addition a CFR member.
On display, we have now Suzanne Kianpour, who’s being a trooper up very late—or very early, I ought to say—in Dubai. She is the creator and host of Women Building Peace on the BBC, an adjunct senior fellow on the Middle East Security program on the Center for New American Security, and a CFR time period member.
And lastly, onstage, we have now Alex Vatanka, the director of the Iran program and senior fellow on the Black Sea program on the Middle East Institute.
Why don’t we begin off right here. I believe, round this time of yr, Jews have fun Passover, and also you ask, why is that this evening totally different from each different evening? And once we discuss in regards to the protests in Iran over the previous seven months, I need to begin off asking every panelist, why have been these protests totally different from different protests that we’ve seen in Iran? And what’s the trajectory trying like over the following seven months?
So, Nazanin, please.
BONIADI: Thanks for having me, it’s nice to be right here with you all.
You know, Iranians are not any strangers to mass protests. We’ve had them—they’ve had them within the nation as soon as each decade: the 1990 pupil protests, the 2009 Green motion, and the Bloody November protests of 2019.
But I believe what units this rebellion, this revolution, this girl, life, freedom revolution aside, is the truth that the spark within the engine has been ladies. Of course, the spark of it being Mahsa Amini’s homicide in custody due to violations, supposed violations of obligatory hijab. But additionally, the primary group of people that actually galvanized
Iranian society at massive to this pro-democracy motion have been ladies and women taking to the streets, taking off their obligatory hijabs, burning their hijabs, slicing their hair in protest, dancing within the streets, women as younger as twelve saying, we don’t need an Islamic republic, whereas unveiling.
It’s actually unprecedented. Their braveness was contagious, and what it did is it galvanized Iranian society at massive, as I discussed. All marginalized teams throughout, you understand, ethnic minorities, spiritual minorities, LGBTQ, college students, labor unions, you identify it, all sectors of society coming collectively in what has develop into a broad-based, pro-democracy revolution.
ROME: Excellent.
Suzanne, over to you. Same query.
KIANPOUR: So, I echo Nazanin’s sentiments, that what makes this time totally different, realizing that protests will not be—Iran is not any stranger to protests—what makes this time totally different is, in reality, that it’s being led by ladies.
I wrote about this in my Politico piece referred to as “The Women of Iran Are Not Backing Down,” which I truly interviewed Nazanin for, in that piece. And I talked about how, within the early days after the homicide of Mahsa Amini, I used to be chatting with a U.S. intelligence official about how the folks that they have been chatting with inside Iran have been all saying that this time felt totally different. And this official, who was an professional on Iran, stated, oh, we’ve seen this so many instances. And I stated this time is totally different, exactly as a result of the ladies are main it.
So, what we’re seeing is a continuation of what’s been occurring. It’s simply the world is now taking note of it. So, I don’t suppose that—I don’t see this dying down.
ROME: Got it.
And Alex, do you agree?
VATANKA: Sure. I do. And thanks for inviting me. It’s nice to be right here.
I believe Nazanin and Suzanne have just about laid the bottom actually properly. There isn’t a lot for me to say by way of what’s happening in Iranian society.
You know, I do—as somebody who’s been watching Iran every day for the final twenty-some years—and I’m initially from Iran, though I can’t return, as you possibly can think about—however as anyone who watches that place, I do have this burning query: How lengthy can this regime keep the course?
And let me simply put this subject of pressured veil in context. As far as I do know, there are two international locations on this planet proper now the place you could have the legislation on pressured veil: the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Now, I can assure you, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei doesn’t need to examine to the Taliban in Afghanistan. But that’s the place he’s. That’s what the regime has develop into. And I can let you know, the Iranian society of 85 million folks—this big nation within the Middle East, the scale of Alaska, 3 times the scale of France—shouldn’t be, by way of its civil society, by way of the aspiration of the folks—the Taliban subsequent door shouldn’t be their function mannequin. And Islamic Republic rulers know this very properly.
Now, the irony then is, you could have the Islamic Republic of Iran, a Shia theocracy, in energy since 1979, billions of {dollars} actually each month, by way of revenue, the place they may go on the market and inform the younger, pay attention, you understand, that is our spiritual narrative, why don’t you be a part of the bandwagon? And they’ve tried, and so they’ve repeatedly, for forty-four years, failed.
So as a substitute, what they’ve managed to do is, Iranian youth are leaving faith, in lots of circumstances, changing to different religions. Christianity might be—if I used to be within the enterprise of spreading the Gospel, I’d say Iran is fertile floor. Because politicized faith in that—in that nation has turned the youth, definitely, off. And we’re speaking about Gen Z technology, 7-8 million folks. This is a formidable class of people who find themselves simply politically maturing, so that they’re not going to go wherever.
And what you could have, Henry, is you could have this form of—it’s virtually comical. Ayatollah Khamenei, this eighty-three-year-old supreme chief, who’s supposedly God’s man on Earth—and I’m not going to take a seat there and query that. But what I do query is, to ensure that him to power the veil on ladies, he’s counting on expertise, surveillance expertise coming in from Communist China, or strategies that they’re studying from the Russian Orthodox Christian system that Vladimir Putin as we speak represents. I don’t see how that is going to be lasting.
I see—mainly, what I believe is happening, by way of Khamenei, there’s one driver behind all of this: endurance. Suppress, suppress, suppress. If you quit on the pressured veil, tomorrow, they’ll ask you, why don’t you, you understand, compromise with the Americans? Or, God forbid, why don’t you acknowledge Israel? And the checklist of issues that folks will demand will likely be so lengthy, that by the point the system is completed compromising, there is no such thing as a Islamic Republic left.
That’s why I believe—they know Iranians don’t put—need to placed on the veil. You know, you go to Iran, you go to any form of society, folks don’t placed on the veil, simply because that’s how our society is as we speak. It was totally different 100 years in the past, fifty years in the past, even. But I believe—that is, for me, is, are you able to keep the course? And I—we will get into it, Henry, there are plenty of methods of measuring it. But I’m uncertain the regime can maintain being in energy for for much longer.
ROME: Yeah. Thank you.
And I need to keep on the purpose about necessary hijab. And Alex—and Suzanne talked about, as properly—the usage of expertise, and the ways in which the federal government is evolving in its methods of imposing that.
And I need to flip to Suzanne, truly, to return to a remark you made, about utilizing visitors cams to implement. And this, at the least primarily based on the newest feedback out of Iran, is the brand new form of mannequin, of utilizing expertise, utilizing cameras and different surveillance tools, after which denying ladies providers, in the event that they’re—if they’re—if they’re caught not abiding by the necessary hijab.
So I used to be curious, Suzanne, when you may discuss just a little about that, in addition to the way you see the form of protest evolving, when it’s transitioning from a form of confrontation with the morality police as a—as a flashpoint, to a extra bureaucratized, systematized approach of imposing these restrictions.
KIANPOUR: Well, look, they’re making an attempt to make it as tough as attainable for the ladies of Iran to not abide by the hijab legislation. I imply, simply as we speak, Iranian state TV was reporting that ladies who don’t put on the hijab won’t
be allowed to take the metro, which, clearly, plenty of ladies must take the metro with the intention to go to work, and maintain their households, in some circumstances. So, they’re making issues as tough as they probably can.
I imply, however conversations that I’ve been having have advanced round every kind of questions, like, OK, if they’ve this elevated expertise to make use of facial recognition to catch ladies who aren’t carrying hijab, then why aren’t they utilizing that very same superior expertise to make use of CCTV to catch the people who find themselves accountable for the schoolgirl poisonings? Which, simply on Sunday, there have been—9 faculties have been reported attacked. So you understand, persons are seeing this, and so they’re simply probably not shopping for the propaganda anymore, on a bigger scale.
And I imply—and it’s all the time—for me, it’s attention-grabbing, the reactions from the lads. I received a message when this story broke, in regards to the—putting in the cameras, from an Iranian man who goes forwards and backwards within the area. He’s a businessman. And I’m going to learn his textual content. He stated, they’ve kids scavenging for meals in rubbish, women turning into prostitutes as a result of they’ll’t discover a job, genius college graduates risking their lives to flee the nation. But no, by all means, let’s set up surveillance cameras to arrest ladies not carrying hijab.
So, the form of hypocrisy shouldn’t be misplaced on the general public. And due to this fact, sure, there’s clearly—it’s clear that there’s concern about sustaining energy. So, whenever you’re involved about your—the power of your management of energy, let’s crack down on the ladies. So, they’re mainly exhibiting their hand, by way of how insecure they really feel about how sturdy they’re, as a authorities.
ROME: Thank you.
And Nazanin, I need to pivot a bit to questions of U.S. coverage. I believe we have now plenty of both present or aspiring U.S. policymakers within the room, or—and watching on-line.
And the form of U.S. authorities’s viewpoint on that is that it might probably do form of two issues directly: It can assist human rights in Iran by levying sanctions towards human rights abusers, calling consideration to Iranian abuses, whereas on the similar time, trying to counter Iran’s nuclear program by conducting negotiations with the regime, that will finally end result—in the event that they have been to succeed—within the unfreezing of quite a few financial assets for the federal government.
Do you see each of these targets as attainable? Or moderately, are they in battle, out of your viewpoint?
BONIADI: Let’s reply it this fashion—it’s an incredible query. I believe, you understand, we’ve now had a forty-four-year case examine on the Islamic Republic. And what has develop into abundantly clear is, you understand, as Bill Clinton, former President Bill Clinton stated, there’s nothing incorrect with America that may’t be cured by what’s proper with America. The reverse of that’s true about Iran. The very pillars of the system be certain that its wrongs can’t be made proper.
So, the thought of reform in Iran is one which’s lifeless. Even former reformist Mousavi—who’s beneath home arrest and was head of the reform revolution of 2009—has stated that the reform motion is lifeless, that this regime shouldn’t be reformable.
So, with that in thoughts, I believe this concept which you can negotiate with this regime, which you can belief this regime, is also lifeless. If it doesn’t—this regime doesn’t have any legitimacy with its personal folks. So, whereas there are historic circumstances of managing arms management offers, say, with Soviet Russia, whereas condemning the Soviets within the Reagan period, I believe, on this second, the distinction is that you’ve a regime that’s illegitimate within the eyes of its folks, and is irreformable. And what do you do with that? You have mass uprisings for democracy in Iran.
It isn’t a nuclear Iran that the U.S. and the West is petrified of; it’s a—it’s a nuclear Islamic Republic. And so, if the purpose of the folks of Iran is—if the aspirations are a secular democracy, the most secure approach, the very best factor,
consequence, for the world, for the worldwide group, is to have a secular, democratic Iran. And I believe the most secure wager for us is to spend money on civil society in Iran to achieve that purpose.
ROME: Got it.
Alex, do you need to—do you need to add to that?
VATANKA: I share the hope, completely. And you understand, you possibly can reply that query—me, because the Iranian-born fellow, who desires to have the ability to leap on a direct flight from Dulles to Tehran and go as much as the Caspian, the place I used to go and study to swim; me because the American citizen, who must prioritize what America must spend money on—I imply, you’d get totally different solutions.
So, I’d say this, although. I agree, to the extent that definitely, a secular, democratic Iran can be virtually—at the least, a chance to reverse the injury the Islamic Republic did to the Middle East since 1979, when it introduced in regards to the Islamist mannequin, the militant Islamist mannequin that Khomeini introduced. I believe a secular, democratic Iran as we speak may do quite a bit to assist to reverse that course of, to undo as a lot of the injury. Because I believe, basically, it has been damaging to the area.
But I’ve been engaged on Iran in D.C. for seventeen years. I can let you know—and I’d love to listen to you as a result of I believe you’ve performed it for a very long time, too, and all of us—however the place is that constant American coverage on Iran? I don’t see it. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a Democrat, or a Republican.
Unfortunately, on this city, on this nation, international coverage has develop into so partisan. So, you’d get a solution from a Democrat on what to do with Iran, they defend the 2015 nuclear deal. And when you’re a Republican, you defend President Trump’s most strain. And each of them had main flaws in them, proper? But it turns into virtually a tribal subject. And that’s the large drawback this nation has, I see, as a—as a naturalized citizen. So I’ve to watch out, I get emotional, I get. But you’d hope that with regards to American nationwide pursuits on the market, there are some fundamental, core points that Democrats, Republicans, would agree on. I don’t see that on Iran. Maximum strain was the alternative of the earlier Democratic administration had achieved. And except you get to a degree the place you possibly can agree, what’s it that we need to get out of an Iran deal—and God is aware of, the United States has had loads of time to give you an answer since 1979, proper? And it doesn’t occur. And as we speak, it’s not going to occur, I’ll let you know what, as a result of American public opinion, the very last thing they need to know is to go on and decide up one other battle within the Middle East.
So, I believe, truly, we’re form of getting to a degree the place we’re going to simply accept a nuclear Iran. We’re not going to say it; they’re not going to supply a weapon; however they’re going to develop into a Japan, of types. They’re going to have every little thing in place in the event that they need to weaponize, and we’re not going to do something about it so long as they don’t embarrass the United States publicly. Because proper now, the U.S. is busy in Ukraine; the U.S. goes to be busy, a lot, with Taiwan and China.
So, I don’t need to, you understand, be the man with a—with a pessimistic view on this. I share the sentiment, however I actually don’t see of us on this city spending plenty of hours pondering, how can we give you a genius Iran coverage, the place we get what we wish in the long run? I want they did, however I don’t see it.
ROME: Yeah.
I need to flip to Suzanne in only a second, and ask in regards to the view from the place you might be, from the area.
But I need to ask Alex—simply choosing up on the purpose about Iran’s exterior surroundings proper now. And I believe what we’ve been speaking about has been very a lot in regards to the inner turmoil. But I may make a case that the exterior surroundings that Iran faces within the area proper now is definitely fairly constructive, from its viewpoint, from a normalization deal detente, because it have been, with Saudi Arabia; Israel is consumed with its personal crises;
the United States is targeted on China and Russia; Europe is targeted very carefully at dwelling. Am I incorrect? Is Iran trying outwards in a—in a—in a stronger place than it has been in a short while?
VATANKA: You know, that’s what the Iranian international ministry is placing on the market day-after-day, how fantastic issues are going. To me, Iran is remoted. To me, Iran is punching approach beneath its potential. It needs to be twenty—prime twenty financial system on this planet; it’s not. It shouldn’t be the second-most sanctioned nation on this planet as we speak after Russia; it’s. It shouldn’t be a rustic the place—you understand, 1979, Iranians world wide have been the form of of us you’d see in a spot like Washington, D.C. universities: all of them studied to go dwelling, as a result of that’s the place we needed to stay. Today, you bought a 6-7 million diaspora of Iranians world wide.
I all the time joke, we are saying we’ve overtaken the Lebanese and the Armenians in turning into the most important diaspora from the Middle East. We’re virtually turning into Irish, by way of the numbers that we’re sending out, proper? (Laughter.)
So, why? Why do folks depart? Because issues aren’t nice at dwelling. And that has been true for a very long time. This is a rustic that actually sits on trillions of {dollars} of simply oil and gasoline, by no means thoughts every little thing else they’ve. And they’re not utilizing it.
So, no, I believe there are—Henry, they’ve associates, associates like Russia, which is a direct competitor for Iranian oil and gasoline markets, associates like China, that will get Iranian oil fortunately at a ten p.c low cost, as a result of why wouldn’t you are taking that 10 p.c low cost? So, they’re taking care of themselves. Yes, there’s the anti-Americanism that brings Russia, and China, and others, Venezuelas of this world, collectively. But this isn’t precisely creating jobs for the Iranians again dwelling, who’re getting on boats to flee the nation to as distant as Australia. That, to me, suggests a failed international coverage.
And I’ll let you know what: Unless they repair their international coverage, their financial system isn’t going to be fastened. You can’t be the Japan of this world economically in case you have the international coverage of North Korea, proper? You received to make bridges to the remainder of the world. You’ve received to cope with the nuclear subject, you’ve received to speak to Washington. You received to speak to the Europeans. Russia and China will assist Iran—a cliche, when you don’t thoughts—assist Iran survive, however if you wish to thrive, when you’re Iran, that’s not sufficient.
ROME: I like the thought of—you typically hear the Japan mannequin in a nonproliferation context, however there’s the opposite a part of the Japan mannequin, which is having an built-in and affluent nation.
Suzanne, you’ve reported from throughout the area, and also you’re there now. Could you share a bit in regards to the form of regional view of both the protests or simply form of Iran’s regional actions, because it stands as we speak?
KIANPOUR: Well, it’s attention-grabbing—to comply with on, form of, Alex’s level, in regards to the diaspora. I imply, I—there’s clearly plenty of Iranians right here in Dubai. And I typically hear folks say that a part of Dubai’s success is exactly due to the failures in Iran. I imply, I’m actually sitting seventy kilometers from the opposite aspect of the Persian Gulf from Iran. That’s like the gap between Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia.
But—so additional on that, form of taking a wider have a look at the place we’re within the area, I imply, clearly, the Iran-Saudi detente, so to talk, form of took folks abruptly. When I had conversations with folks acquainted with, form of, the—near the Saudi international minister, who have been fairly hawkish till now, when it got here to Iran—so it appeared like a little bit of a sudden flip, proper? They stated, look, it’s—all of it comes all the way down to Saudi nationwide safety. And so, you understand, for no matter purpose, they determined that it was time to form of bury the hatchet with Iran, and attempt to discover a little bit of stability and peace within the area.
But I agree with Alex, within the sense that Iran nonetheless is remoted. I don’t suppose—I haven’t seen up to now any indication that that is something greater than only a form of thawing of relations between Saudi and Iran. It doesn’t—it doesn’t seem like they’re essentially turning into associates, like, there’s nonetheless very a lot plenty of suspicion.
But it’s additionally actually attention-grabbing. When I’ve been in Saudi prior to now couple of months—and I’ve so as to add that these questions are requested in form of hushed tones—however they typically ask, form of, it have to be actually tough, or is it actually tough for the Iranian folks to see Saudi Arabia flourishing in departments like artwork and tradition, when Iran has such a wealthy of historical past of tradition?
And, I imply, the reply is sure.
So—I imply, it’s an attention-grabbing time, being right here proper now. And we’ll form of see how issues develop, notably with the form of burgeoning Saudi-Israel safety relationship, that they don’t publicly admit, however we all know is form of percolating behind the scenes. So, we’ll see what which means with Iran and Israel’s shadow battle, a subject of an extended—hour-long documentary that I introduced, you all ought to search for, Out of the Shadows, very attention-grabbing feedback from former head of the Mossad in there about their continued operations in Iran. Yeah, so I’d say keep tuned.
ROME: Got it. Got it.
Just a warning that we’re going to start out turning to the viewers for questions in only a second. So, get your questions collectively, and get them sorted in your head, each right here and on-line.
But I needed to ask simply earlier than we head there, Nazanin, the—Alex talked about the form of Democrat-Republican break up on this, and also you’ve been extraordinarily lively in assembly with senior U.S. officers, and everywhere in the world, actually.
But simply specializing in the U.S., what have you ever seen, or what has—have your observations shocked you, about how, form of, U.S. officers have a look at Iran, or of us from totally different sides of the aisle? Have you had any form of attention-grabbing takeaways from the previous seven months, or so?
BONIADI: Well, I imply, I’ve been on this area for fifteen years. And I agree with Alex within the sense that this—the Iran subject could be very—it’s very polarized.
VATANKA: Polarizing.
BONIADI: And, you understand, I believe, on the finish of the day, it’s develop into extra of a, dare I say it—a Republican subject. You know, this form of preventing for democracy is one thing that has form of develop into partisan, in a approach. And everybody has political expediency. Both sides of the aisle are preventing for their very own, form of—as you stated—defending the nuclear deal, reviving the nuclear deal, and the opposite aspect, most strain, proper?
So, it shouldn’t be. This shouldn’t be one aspect or the opposite. What I’ve discovered is with this administration, there’s been an actual willingness to assist. Whether that’s materialized as quick as we’d like is one other subject, however we’re nonetheless engaged on it. But quite a lot of issues have come about, and I’d like to the touch on, which is, after I met with the administration in October, quickly after that, we had an Arria-Formula session on the U.N. Security Council, at which I spoke. That actually resonated with the folks inside Iran.
We additionally requested for the Islamic republic to be kicked off the U.N. Commission on the Status of Women. We have been informed that that will not be attainable; it’s unprecedented. It was unprecedented. And but, I believe the Iranian group got here collectively, and made it attainable. And that was one thing that was requested for by the folks, ladies’s rights defenders, inside Iran. It wasn’t one thing we exterior, or the U.S. administration, spearheaded. And after all, there was the U.N. Human Rights Security Council fact-finding mission that received authorised, and we’re ready to see the result of that.
So, there have been optimistic steps, and unprecedented steps, which have taken place. And what it’s performed, for me, is it’s introduced each side collectively for the primary time. This is now not only a, you understand, properly, this aspect desires, you
know—basically, lots of people stated, you simply need to go to battle with Iran, and this aspect simply desires to appease Iran. And now, we discover a coming-together of each side, hopefully, with the understanding that the primary factor that we should always all deal with is precisely what our Founding Fathers right here targeted on, which is, mainly, human rights and our rights to freedom and democracy.
ROME: All proper.
Let’s flip to the room first for questions. Just a reminder that this complete assembly and your questions are on the document.
All proper. We have a hand raised proper up entrance.
Q: Good afternoon, or good night, everybody. So, my identify is Nick DeMassi. I’m with American University. I additionally work on the Treasury Department.
So, my query refers to a remark that Suzanne made earlier about propaganda, though it’s directed at any of you. So, these protests, a few you could have referenced that they might appear totally different now than previous ones. So, what’s the function of presidency propaganda in these protests? Because after I hear propaganda, today, it does make me suppose quite a bit about Russia. So, is it much like what could also be happening in Russia, by way of authorities propaganda making an attempt to affect the narrative? And how does it matter that Iran might be extra linked to the skin world than it was in previous protests?
Thank you.
KIANPOUR: I can begin.
ROME: Thank you. Suzanne, please.
KIANPOUR: I’ll begin on this, as a result of I truly got here throughout a moderately attention-grabbing video on Instagram, as a result of, you understand, if the Green revolution of 2009 was the Twitter revolution, this revolution, Woman, Life, Freedom, is certainly an Instagram revolution. And the Iranian regime has picked up on that. And now, they’re form of doing their form of counter-narratives.
And so, I noticed this video, which was mainly a chadari girl—so, a lady within the form of full black veils—remodeling right into a ninja. And so, it was alleged to be form of emblematic of a robust girl, so a lady in hijab is highly effective, which I had by no means seen that earlier than. I believed that was attention-grabbing.
But I do must—form of in keeping with—I imply, propaganda is successfully—is authorities messaging, or any form of messaging, any message that you simply need to put throughout to the world, or to your folks, or to affect the lever.
And I additionally wrote about this in my piece, a couple of dialog I had with a really senior regime official, one who’s acquainted with the supreme chief’s pondering, who had truly informed the supreme chief this, that they wanted to evolve their pondering on how they method ladies, and forcing ladies to put on hijab, which is one thing we’ve seen reporting on this, that there have been members of the federal government that stated that hijab shouldn’t be necessary.
But the form of—I assume, in keeping with the propaganda, is that if we don’t power ladies to put on hijab, they’ll be extra inclined to put on hijab, as a result of the Iranian girl is najeeb, which is, like, “chaste.” I assume that’s the interpretation.
So, it’s a—I imply, propaganda and messaging and their type of public diplomacy is a serious a part of how they’ve ruled for the final forty-four years.
ROME: Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm.
Alex, Nazanin, something so as to add?
VATANKA: Very rapidly—I imply, on hijab, I—you understand, there’s a number of cash being spent by the Iranian nationwide TV and radio. I imply, no person actually watches it. One of the explanations—(inaudible)—Iranian-Saudi rapprochement, there are many explanation why they determined to speak. But one of many Iranian calls for is that, you understand, you cease supporting Iranian Farsi, or Persian language media operations, as a result of they have been so profitable. Iranians don’t need their very own state-run TV, besides if you’re a member of the about 10, 15 p.c of Iranians who nonetheless assist this regime. And we will break down, if persons are , in what that 10, 15 p.c stands for. But my level is, the propaganda on points like tradition, social points, shouldn’t be working.
So you’re going to be careful for the propaganda aspect of issues, however simply don’t suppose it’s working so properly for the Iranian regime at dwelling, as a result of the Iranian folks have needed to hearken to it for forty-four years, and so they know how one can ignore it.
ROME: Great.
We will keep within the room, please elevate your hand.
VATANKA: What’s the choice, Henry? (Laughter.)
ROME: You’ll must cope with my questions for longer.
Please.
Q: Hello, I’m Lilli Posner from the National Endowment for Democracy.
So what, in your estimation—and I—clearly, you possibly can’t predict the longer term—what can be the factor to make it crumble? Is it a grassroots initiative just like the one we simply noticed? Is it elite fracture? Is it some form of international policy-related occasion, all the above? But how do you suppose, proper—what’s the breaking level that lets Iran develop into the secular democracy we’d all wish to see it’s?
ROME: That’s an incredible query. Nazanin.
BONIADI: Yeah. I believe—I believe what’s wanted is, after all, strain from beneath—which is what you’re seeing, folks taking to the streets—and fissures on the prime. We are seeing fissures. People suppose we’re not
seeing fissures. We are seeing fissures. There was an incredible piece by Vice News exhibiting that the Basij—truly, there are members of the Basij which can be defecting. What occurs to them is that they get despatched off to undisclosed places and possibly tortured. And sadly, that’s what’s occurring, as with all dissident, or anybody who raises their voice in opposition to what the regime is doing.
But I believe—actually, I believe, I’d wish to focus, actually, on the feminine aspect right here, as a result of historical past reveals us that each time ladies have been a central a part of these—take part in a central approach in these actions, the prospect of them succeeding is increased. In truth, there was an incredible piece in Foreign Affairs on, when—Iranian ladies on the frontlines—simply final yr, that talked about this.
And I believe the margin between success and failure, clearly, could be very slim. And what—the duty that we have now, because the worldwide group, is to tip that in favor of the protestors. And after all, there’s quite a lot of methods we will do this: guaranteeing web entry; you understand, some folks would say, designating the IRGC as a terrorist group; guaranteeing that the regime and their cronies don’t have protected havens within the West; and quite a lot of different measures. Some folks have prompt strike funds, and the way we will circumvent, possibly, the sanctions with the intention to present that to folks inside Iran, or present exemptions.
And—however actually, the regime has misplaced legitimacy with its personal folks. What it’s doing within the area, making an attempt to normalize its relationship with Saudi Arabia, possibly have China exchange U.S. affect within the area, actually doesn’t—that legitimacy can’t be conferred to it by exterior powers.
So, I believe, if we will handle, because the worldwide group, to at the least tip that steadiness in favor of the protestors, the—I don’t suppose this regime actually has a leg to face on.
VATANKA: No, I simply would add—as a result of I believe you talked about the navy choice—or possibly not the navy choice, however a international choice—I don’t see a international choice, by way of bringing about democracy, within the sense of a navy marketing campaign. I don’t envisage—nor do I believe the Iranian opposition desires Iraq-style, 2003 U.S. boots on the bottom. This nation has—we’d like two generations to form of digest what occurred in Afghanistan and Iraq earlier than we do something like that once more. That’s my private opinion. This nation’s performed for that form of nation-building.
But that doesn’t imply you don’t do something. You can nonetheless assist the Iranian civil society. I imply, typically, I hear folks—and I received’t identify names, and even point out the factions they arrive from—however you understand, you’re both appeasing, otherwise you need battle. And that’s simply such a incorrect approach of this, such a sophisticated subject. You can—how will you say the Iranians who stay exterior of Iran actually don’t matter, as a result of solely those who stay in Iran matter? The ones in Iran matter, however the ones who stay exterior, many instances, they left for a purpose, proper?
BONIADI: Yeah.
VATANKA: And a few of them left, not forty-four years in the past, however 4 weeks in the past. They are emotionally invested; they need to return. And the concept that you don’t hearken to them, I believe, is incorrect.
And then you possibly can search for methods to provide them a voice, as a result of they’re oftentimes the bridge between the folks of Iran who can converse, or, you understand, behind the wall, if you’ll, and the remainder of the world.
International strain issues. Embarrassing the regime—you understand, let’s for a second not discuss in regards to the macro-level, large change. Let’s speak about small, child steps. For the longest time, the Iranian regime refused to permit ladies, after ’79, to enter stadiums to look at males play soccer, soccer. God forbid, these guys are exhibiting their legs. That’s too provocative, proper? So the regime stated no.
FIFA, the worldwide soccer federation, places strain: If you don’t change your guidelines on that subject, ladies with the ability to come to a stadium, we’re going to kick you out of FIFA fully, and also you’re not going to come back to the lads’s World Cup anymore. And the regime does a fast cost-benefit calculation—all these younger, indignant males, in the event that they’re informed, our group’s not going to go to the World Cup as a result of—so what do they do? They let ladies into the stadium.
And I can go on. There are—there are examples of this, the place strain does matter. So, I believe that at the least, let’s not possibly take into consideration the large, shaking up the system fully to its core, however take into consideration possibly smaller, child steps towards altering the regime.
I’ll say this ultimate level, Henry, as a result of the regime’s prime echelon—Khamenei’s eighty-three, he’s going to be eighty-four quickly—that first technology of the Iranian Revolutionaries who created the system again in 1979, they’re both dying or already lifeless. You must additionally, as a part of your multifront marketing campaign, give the second technology, in case the regime stays, totally different selections. Listen, you possibly can go this fashion, and that is what’s going to occur to you, or you possibly can hearken to your personal folks. For a second, change your plan of action, and simply hearken to them, and also you’ll see what they need could be very totally different from what you’re doing.
So, that’s the form of factor I believe, if the U.S. was artistic, and the U.S. may be artistic, you would give you, by way of coverage devices.
BONIADI: Can I simply add another factor?
ROME: Yes, please.
BONIADI: I believe—to echo what you stated, rising the political price of persecution, and rewarding defections.
VATANKA: Right.
BONIADI: So, if we will discover a approach to do this in our international coverage, that’s the successful ticket. And I believe that’s the place we—the approaching collectively of each events on this subject prior to now six months has been pivotal to veer away from appeasement and from that concept of, form of, warmongering, or no matter else we need to name it.
VATANKA: Right.
ROME: Suzanne, I need to provide you with an opportunity to leap in, when you needed so as to add something on this query. Otherwise, we’ll flip to the following query.
KIANPOUR: Yeah, I imply, I believe Nazanin and Alex have, you understand, lined most bases.
I imply, I believe I’m typically requested, you understand, as a journalist, what do you hear that the Iranian folks need? And probably the most—the 2 most—the solutions that I get most frequently are, one, please don’t let the world overlook about us, so proceed to inform our tales and be our voice, and that’s actually key. And they’re not essentially asking for, you understand, the form of intervention that, you understand, folks assume that the diaspora desires. You know, they don’t—most don’t need battle.
And the opposite, nonetheless, is, you understand, they are saying, oh, you go to the White House; properly, ask Biden—a few of them name him Ayatollah Biden, as a result of they’re, you understand, not proud of him—(laughter)—they are saying, ask Ayatollah Biden why he’s supporting the regime. And I ask, properly, what do you imply by that? What are you anticipating him to do? And they are saying, properly, you understand, regime officers have their cash exterior of the nation, and their relations live massive exterior of the nation. And initially of the protests, there have been plenty of, you
know, Instagram photos circulating of daughters of, you understand, feminine daughters of regime officers in varied locations world wide, form of carrying what they wouldn’t be capable to put on in Iran.
So, it’s the form of accountability that the folks of Iran are on the lookout for. And I believe that’s one thing that, if the U.S. desires to keep up credibility with regards to Iranian international coverage, that’s what the persons are on the lookout for.
ROME: Great. All proper. Do we have now anyone on-line? Or no. We’ll keep within the room.
Right up—proper up right here.
Q: Thank you a lot. My identify is Pascal. I’m with the Council for Inclusive Capitalism.
You spoke to the function that advocates, policymakers, geopolitical forces can play. What in regards to the function of firms?
ROME: An excellent query about, yeah, how do—how do firms play into this? Who desires to—who desires to take this one?
VATANKA: Do you need to go?
But look, forty-four years after the revolution took place—by way of Western firms, if I may simply deal with that—their footprint is restricted as we speak. So, you understand, there are not any main—so far as I do know—main presence by multinationals.
So, Iran’s greatest buying and selling companion as we speak is China. One third of its general commerce goes to China. Russia is quick turning into a fairly important buying and selling companion, despite the fact that there isn’t actually a lot of a convergence, as a result of they’re basically enjoying the identical subject for oil and gasoline market, however as a result of each of them are sanctioned, there’s good purpose for them to collaborate.
And you understand, I may bore you with all types of tasks which can be happening. Henry, you understand this. One of Putin’s prime advisers was simply in Tehran for the sixth—no, fifth time in six months, to create this so-called north-south hall, linking the Indian Ocean by Iran to Russia.
So, there are issues like that occuring. But these are comparatively talking, on a—on a small scale.
Let me provide you with an instance, to my thoughts, what a multinational is about. Iran has the world’s largest pure gasoline subject on this planet. About 15 p.c, if I keep in mind my numbers proper,15 p.c of the world’s pure gasoline is on this one subject in the midst of the Persian Gulf. And it’s shared with the nation of Qatar, tiny Qatar, which is, you understand, why Qatar is so fabulously rich. What are the Qataris doing? They’re bringing all the highest gamers—multinationals, the Exxons and so forth, the Shells—and so they’re getting that gasoline out, and so they’re develop into—they’re the second largest LNG exporter after the United States on this planet as we speak.
Where is Iranian LNG exports? Wild guess: Doesn’t exist, proper? So, what the regime’s international coverage is doing by way of placing sanctions on itself, laying aside traders, is that they’ve delayed tasks that, proper now, would have been leading to billions of {dollars} in windfall. So, that’s a technique of trying on the query.
But I imply, look, the quick reply to your query, by way of whether or not the firms have—Western firms have the sway and skill to come back in and form coverage—no. And that’s very a lot deliberate. That’s why Khamenei, in 2015, when the nuclear deal was signed, stated, sure, we have now the nuclear deal signed. But within the first speech he gave proper after that, however no American firms, as a result of that’s the delicate approach for
them to come back in, and subsequent factor you understand, America’s going to result in regime change, proper? That’s the way in which Khamenei thinks.
So, he’s completely happy to surrender the billions of {dollars} or simply depend on the Chinese, however he has this inside suspicion that regardless of the U.S. says, U.S. has one final purpose, to deliver his regime down. And that’s why they’re so reluctant to go there and let their firms in, they that means the United States and the West.
BONIADI: I believe an incredible instance of that was the vaccines. I imply, Pfizer—
VATANKA: Right, the vaccines.
BONIADI: The denial of Pfizer vaccines in Iran. He needed Iran to make its personal vaccines as a result of, you understand, he didn’t belief—despite the fact that the folks wanted it.
VATANKA: Right.
ROME: Yeah. Suzanne, do you need to chime in on this?
KIANPOUR: Well, I imply, the—you understand, the Islamic Republic is a revolutionary state. And a revolutionary state wants an enemy. And properly, firms are a part of the enemy. So I’ve had conversations with folks inside large firms who’ve needed to assist, and needed to seek out methods inside Iran, clearly. But their choices are restricted.
ROME: Yeah.
All proper. Who else? Otherwise I’ll must hold asking questions, and our panelists don’t need that.
VATANKA: Yeah.
ROME: Yes, proper up entrance.
Q: Sure, hello. I’m Ameya Hadap. I’m with the Atlantic Council, and I work on local weather and vitality points.
So, my query is about exterior geopolitical elements. So, my private learn on Iran’s geopolitical state of affairs is that previously couple of months, been on a—partially has been on a backfoot. In vitality markets, as you talked about, China used to purchase—continues to purchase Iranian oil, steep reductions. But they’re doing so for sanctioned Russian oil now, typically undercutting Iranian oil at its value level, taking tankers off the market and serving as a backstop to your complete Russian financial system, in some circumstances. And on the similar time, appears to me that China’s engagement with Saudi Arabia and the GCC is ramping up significantly, plenty of pageantry, plenty of formality, statements and summits, actually laying out the purple carpet there.
So, given China’s potential—if not realignment—elevated engagement throughout your complete area on vitality and different points, whereas Saudi Arabia turns away from the U.S. because it’s decarbonizing and specializing in human rights, do you see that as, possibly a decade or two down the road, a chance for the United States to step in and say, Iran’s companions, historic companions, their dedication is flagging, possibly it’s—there’s some work to be performed right here.
ROME: Alex?
VATANKA: Look, little doubt in my thoughts, if Iran was the secular democracy, then it will have a serious pendulum swing again to the place it was once. I imply, China as we speak is the most important buying and selling companion. It was once
Germany. The Europeans was once a few of the greatest buying and selling companions. And when you return earlier than 1979, the United States was a giant one too.
But let me—let me take the larger subject you raised about this U.S.-China competitors within the Middle East, as a result of clearly that is within the information. Let’s not child ourselves. What occurred on the tenth of March in Beijing, when the Chinese managed to get the Iranians and the Saudis collectively, was one thing that every one three events have been serious about, for his or her totally different causes, to poke the United States within the eye. You’re not that necessary anymore, pal, proper? That was the message. You’re not that necessary. You’re declining. You’ve received demographic points; you’ve received all types of inner points; God is aware of what. This is what Khamenei has been preaching for a very long time, and others too.
So, there’s plenty of symbolic worth, however I additionally hear folks on this city say, you understand, the Chinese within the Eighties received ballistic missiles—I imply, the Saudis received Chinese ballistic missiles quietly, and we informed them about it. But that didn’t lead to Saudi Arabia pivoting away from the United States. In different phrases, that, sure, typically Saudi Arabia will get upset and they’re going to do issues that we’ll discover unfriendly, however that doesn’t imply that anyone, even China, is prepared proper now to interchange the United States—which is, mainly, fifty-some thousand American troops in bases throughout the area, from Syria all the way in which to Oman. This is funding that’s taken many years, after the Second World War, for the United States to construct up. Nobody can are available and exchange it. Even if the United States needed to interchange itself, and get itself out and pivot to Asia, China shouldn’t be prepared to come back in and take that function.
What China is doing proper now, when you, for instance, look—they’re primarily serious about vitality safety. And I’m not a China professional so I’ve received to watch out what I say, however what they’re doing is, since they get about 50 p.c of their oil—which is much lower than the Japanese get; they get 95 p.c of their oil from the Persian Gulf—vitality safety for economies is vital, proper?
So, what the Chinese are doing very regularly, since 2017, with the buildup base in Djibouti, they received the bottom, Gwadar, in Pakistan, they could have a base in Oman, so looking for a method to make themselves right into a extra highly effective naval power, within the occasion that they’ve to guard their industrial pursuits. But that’s a long-term challenge that China will want plenty of time, and politically, must be dedicated to it. I’m not even positive if the Chinese need to—need to go there. But that’s—I see that as a long-term risk.
But I do need to say this one factor, as properly. This nation has too lengthy—and there’s a notion drawback within the area—after I go to the area, and I do fairly a little bit of that, I hear, the U.S. retains speaking about Sunnis and Shias, and Persians and Arabs, and Turks and Kurds. U.S. is form of pitting us towards one another to promote us these costly navy platforms. That’s not what the area wants. The area wants factories that create jobs for younger folks, so that they don’t be a part of radical teams. That’s what China is doing. China’s Belt and Road Initiative, which has been— what, born in 2013, and already has spent about $900 billion—they’re truly at the least pretending they’re creating jobs; they’re constructing ports and so forth. A number of it’s not true, however that’s what they’re—the messaging is working for them.
The United States can not simply be a safety guarantor. It must play a job as an financial power for good for the area. That’s what the firms—to the query earlier than—are available. Find methods to make cash within the Middle East, that’ll win-win: Americans win, American firms, American employees, and people folks within the area will not be simply shopping for an costly navy platform that sits within the desert and no person is aware of how one can keep it. And you understand, it’s a waste of their assets.
So, there must be pondering alongside these strains to cope with, particularly, the China problem, as a result of that’s the place they’re coming at. They’re invested—as Henry is aware of significantly better than me—in locations like Iraq and Saudi Arabia, in something from ports, to refineries, to—and the place’s the United States in that? And there must be a U.S. presence.
ROME: I like the way you tied within the first query about authorities propaganda in your reply there in regards to the Chinese. That was good.
There’s a query within the again, I imagine.
Q: Thank you. Thank you a lot. My identify is Emily Hartman Rogers and I work on the State Department, totally on Africa coverage, but in addition on civil society group programming.
And I’m questioning, what, in your opinion, ought to the United States be doing to higher assist the civil society organizations which can be most lively on the bottom? Because, I imply, it’s my expertise that that’s the place the change comes from, notably in areas like this.
So, I’m questioning what alternatives we’re leaving out and what we needs to be doing to capitalize on them.
ROME: Very good query. Who desires—Nazanin, do you need to begin?
BONIADI: Sure. I’m completely happy to take that.
I imply, quite a lot of us have come collectively within the diaspora—I need to echo what Alex stated earlier, about not form of sidelining the diaspora in these conversations, as a result of each dissident that’s discovered refuge has discovered refuge exterior of Iran, proper? I imply, the mind drain is actual. The greatest and the brightest of Iranian society are both in jail or they’ve been mainly exiled, is what persons are saying inside. They’re both persecuted or they’re despatched away from Iran.
So, I’d encourage each lawmaker the world over to interact with the diaspora, as a result of we basically—for instance, I simply had a dialog with distinguished dissidents in Iran simply yesterday. I’m continually in contact with them. They can’t—we’re mainly the conduit, proper, between them and Western lawmakers.
So, I’d actually encourage lawmakers—for forty-four years, they’ve engaged with the Islamic Republic and the officers—this yr at each the World Economic Forum and the Munich Security Conference, we had a presence as opposition voices. The tide is shifting, and I’d say that there must be extra of that. We want to interact with opposition voices and actually hearken to what the folks inside are saying, as a result of that’s all we’re doing, is we’re delivering these messages.
And what I’m listening to from civil society, and dissidents specifically, inside Iran is, sure, there are few folks on the streets proper now, as a result of actually, how can anybody maintain greater than seven months of being shot within the eye, shot within the coronary heart, being imprisoned, raped, despatched to psychological reconditioning facilities, what have you ever, executed?
So, what they’re doing is that they’re regrouping and there will likely be extra. There will likely be one other rebellion, as a result of these uprisings began—actually, they began in December 2017, these anti-compulsory hijab protests which have became far more than that.
The solely factor that got here in the way in which of that was the pandemic. The break that you simply noticed, the prolonged break was the pandemic. Otherwise, there have been fixed uprisings since December 2017. What we have to do is, you understand, we’ve spent a lot cash right here in America for pro-democracy causes, however when the second arrives that the folks of that nation are rising up and taking all of the dangers to battle for that freedom, we don’t have the following step in place.
So, we actually must have that subsequent step, is, why are we funding these pro-democracy actions and no matter we’re doing, to advocate for democracy abroad? But then we don’t have the plan in place when that second
arises. So, web entry is vital. And everybody inside Iran I converse to—who I converse to is saying, please, we have to keep linked to you. But extra importantly, we have to keep linked to one another to have the ability to arrange. I don’t suppose that’s one thing that needs to be dismissed flippantly. That is a request that I believe will make or break the following rebellion in Iran.
ROME: Let me flip to Alex after which Suzanne. And we’re operating out of time right here, so I assume we’ll provide you with an opportunity to make your ultimate—
VATANKA: Let Suzanne go first.
ROME: Okay, Suzanne, please.
KIANPOUR: I believe, by way of the query of what may be performed, clearly, as a journalist, I can’t actually be advising. I’m supposed to stay neutral and goal. But I’ll say, um, you understand, notion, and the form of American exceptionalism from the area—American exceptionalism—the notion of American exceptionalism, moderately, is form of in bother.
And I simply needed to—I do know this isn’t answering this query, essentially, however I needed to return to what Alex was saying in regards to the function of China within the area. I imply, right here, I do know that we are saying that, oh, Khamenei is all the time speaking about how America has all these points internally, and that’s actually part of his messaging and propaganda, so to talk. But it truly is beginning to minimize by. I imply, I’m—I—each time I open my mouth, it turns into very clear that I’m American. And so, folks out of the blue have every kind of opinions about America. And plenty of it’s about our home considerations. And America is beginning to lose a little bit of credibility.
And I believe—so, that’s one thing to remember as an American diplomat, you understand, working on the State Department and, you understand, arising with methods to assist civil society in different international locations, is that the home turmoil does translate overseas.
ROME: Alex, do you could have the ultimate phrase?
VATANKA: Oh. (Laughs.)
ROME: No strain.
VATANKA: No strain. No, It received’t be something stunning to recollect.
But simply in a short time, by way of State Department, I—you understand, I assume the primary problem is to resolve which approach, basically, is the Iran coverage going. And you inform me. I don’t know the place it’s going. Coexist, change conduct of the Islamic Republic, or discover methods to deliver it down. I don’t know if that’s, you understand, a selection that—the way in which I simply laid it on the bottom, oftentimes that’s how we focus on it. But definitely with regards to key policymaking, when you don’t know that, if you’re the United States, that’s going to form every little thing that comes from State Department and different authorities businesses on this nation, which in turns—which in flip, that lack of decisiveness is precisely why the international locations within the Gulf are turning and saying, you understand what? We can’t look ahead to the Americans. They don’t have an Iran coverage. Let me minimize a cope with the Iranians. That’s what the Saudis simply did, proper?
The Americans are good at one factor: sanctions. Put sanctions on it. It’s low-cost. It doesn’t price something for them. In truth, it does. It does price American firms quite a bit since you lose market share. But anyway, sanctions can do—be very productive—efficient, however not alone, proper? Not alone. And I believe—So, my basic level is you bought to have, sooner or later, hopefully quickly, one thing that begins trying like a coherent coverage, the place you have to decide: Is the Iranian nuclear subject the one factor we care about? Do we need to spend money on the way forward for that nation that we all know will likely be pro-Western, if the folks of Iran
truly had free elections the place they may vote for what they need? That’s the form of debate that must be—available.
But I may also let you know—and that is my ultimate phrase—simpler to say what to not do. I imply, I typically get invited to occasions the place folks speak about ethnic teams in Iran. Shouldn’t we arm them? And I’m actually scratching my head and saying, are you severe? I imply, Iran is a multiethnic and imperial state with 5 thousand years of historical past. We have dozens and dozens of ethnic teams. The concept that the United States ought to go in there and arm a gaggle of ethnic minorities someplace within the nation—that’s not an alternative choice to American coverage. That will simply give folks within the area extra purpose to doubt and say, the Americans are simply scheming, proper? The Americans—so, there are issues which can be simple to say to State Department, to Pentagon, others. That’s not what you need to do.
You need to—you understand, one factor on the Iranian opposition. One factor that we may attempt to do— they’re stunning folks. A number of good concepts. But, boy, typically they don’t get alongside and discuss. (Laughter.) Maybe. Maybe since—
BODIAN: We’re making an attempt to alter issues.
VATANKA: I do know. We attempt—(laughter)—I do know. I do know. I do know. I do know. I do know. And you’re doing a wonderful job.
BODIANI: Thank you.
VATANKA: But it begins with steps like that.
But look, I imply, basically, if I may depart you with a hopeful observe, I have a look at Iran as a rustic that has been striving for democracy actually since 1906. Over 100 years in the past, that they had a constitutional revolution the place ladies have been concerned, proper? This shouldn’t be a rustic that was created by some colonial energy, or they don’t know who they’re, or the place they’re going. This is a civil society, a wealthy tradition, a wealthy folks. They know precisely what they need, however they’re coping with their suppressive system proper now. The suppression proper now could be of their approach. But the civil society shouldn’t be going to go wherever. And Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the generals and the Revolutionary Guards realize it. And if I needed to guess, that retains them up late at evening today.
BODIANI: Can I add one factor?
ROME: Sure, positive.
BODIANI: Sanctions are nice. Enforcing sanctions are essential. We can’t simply announce sanctions left, proper, and middle. How about we actually implement those that we have to, you understand, in a really strategic approach in order that we’re truly focusing on these rights abusers.
VATANKA: Right. Right. Absolutely.
(END)